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Fumatul, exact intre esenta si existenta

Feb 8th, 2010 by jemapel

cheshire-cat3.JPG — Iata o pisica neverosimila. Oare?



Un amic mi-a facut cadou o carte si se numeste “Calea usoara sa te lasi de fumat“. E inca in tipla, ma tot uit la ea si ma intreb:

- daca e asa de “usor” de ce e atit de groasa si atit de cartonata?
- daca citesc mai lent si uit unele chestii, mai are efect?
- exista o carte “Calea complicata sa te lasi de fumat”?
- daca da, de ce mai usor ar fi mai bine?

In orice caz, cartea trebuie sa fie buna daca deja mi-am pus atitea intrebari…

Posted in Chestiunea arzatoare

39 Responses to “Fumatul, exact intre esenta si existenta”

  1. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:06 am1crossy

    N-o desface, las-o in tipla! O sa fumezi mai mult in timp ce o citesti iar la sfarsit o sa constati ca e atat de usor sa te lasi de fumat incat nu merita incercat. Eu ma enervez deja cand ma gandesc cate pachete de tigari o sa-si cumpere autorul din vanzarea cartii asteia.

  2. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:07 am2jemapel

    > N-o desface, las-o in tipla!

    Intr-un moment de slabiciune am citit prefata: omul e serios, fuma 80-100 de tigari pe zi. Poate omul a ramas fara bani de tutun, ma gindesc, si s-a apucat de vindut carti.

    Vad doua posibilitati daca o citesc:

    1) ma las de fumat, demonstrind ca sint un tip slab si influentabil.
    2) nu ma las de fumat, demonstrind ca sint un tip tare si timpit.

    E clar ca trebuie sa merg pina la capat ca sa aflu adevarul despre mine, nu-i asa, Crossy?

  3. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:09 am3crossy

    Ai curaj? Daca da, ne spui si noua rezultatul? Sau ramanem cu adevarul nostru despre tine?

  4. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:10 am4jemapel

    Merci, Crossy. Iata in sfirsit un motiv serios sa nu citesc cartea.

    ps. carte care ma tine de la carti mai importante, ca de pilda Bere si filozofie.

  5. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:11 am5ioan

    Jemapel, dupa ce o citesti (nu dupa ce te lasi de fumat), mi-o imprumuti si mie? Sunt si eu curios care o fi calea aia usoara.

  6. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:12 am6jemapel

    > mi-o imprumuti si mie?

    Pardonne moi?! Cind costa cam cit 3 pachete de tigari?!

  7. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:12 am7ioan

    Tocmai! Ce, vrei sa renunt la 3 pachete de tigari?!?

  8. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:13 am8sanda

    Pai la noi in firma se ofera gratuit un curs care sa te ajute sa te lasi de fumat. Acum nu stiu care din angajati traiesc mai sanatos: cei care nu fumeaza ca mine, dar zac cel putin 10 ore pe zi la calculator sau cei care trebuie sa iasa afara ca sa fumeze.

  9. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:15 am9jemapel

    > Pai la noi in firma se ofera gratuit un curs …

    Stiu, dar practic nu merge nimic. Doctorul mi-a zis sa incerc hipnoza si am ris foarte mult (si-a notat imediat ceva, nu stiu ce, sper ca de bine). Treaba e mult mai bizara, Sanda, dupa o virsta doctorii nu mai recomanda sa te lasi. Evident, nu recomanda nici sa te tii de fumat, niste banditi, evident.

  10. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:16 am10florian

    Dar daca te opresti pur si simplu din fumat ce se intimpla? Nu cred ca e ca atunci cind iti tii respiratia, de exemplu.

  11. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:18 am11ioan

    Nu. E mai rau: cand iti tii respiratia, dupa 5-10 minute ai scapat: te-ai lasat de respirat!

    Dar cand nu fumezi trebuie sa te abtii permanent (practic fiecare minut) luni si ani de zile!

  12. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:19 am12jemapel

    Ce se intimpla nu stiu precis, dar iti propun un experiment: ia acadeaua din gura unui copil si explica-i ca isi strica dintii si pofta de mincare si in general nu duce o viata sanatoasa.

  13. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:20 am13ion

    Eu m-am chinuit sa ma apuc de fumat. N-am reusit. Oare am si eu o problema? Jemapel, crezi ca ma poate ajuta cartea ta?

  14. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:21 am14adriana

    Stai asa, sa lamurim o chestie:

    1 – de ce ar vrea Jemapel sa se lase de fumat? e ceva ce-l ingrijoreaza?
    2 – de ce vrea Ion sa se apuce?

  15. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:23 am15jemapel

    Jemapel a citit undeva ca fumatul face rau la ten. Si intr-adevar, am observat niste riduri. Mai mult, le vad doar cu ochelarii, de unde vederea si fumatul au o legatura.

    De ce vrea Ion sa se apuce? Simplu, ca sa se dea cool fata de gagici de peste 50 ani.

  16. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:25 am16gul

    Am incercat sa analizez ce ma determina sa fumez – si culmea a fost, ca e o departajare a sarcinilor pe care le ai de facut intr-o zi, 2 ,3, etc. si faptul ca daca le-ai dus oarecum la bun sfarsit, merita’sarbatorit” printr-o tigara… iti aduce o pauza de gandire, de reflectie…

  17. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:26 am17jemapel

    > sarcinilor pe care le ai de facut intr-o zi, 2 ,3, etc

    Tendinta e sa imparti o sarcina in cit mai multe sub-sarcini, ai observat desigur:

    > merita ‘sarbatorit” printr-o tigara…

    Dupa cum era de asteptat, orice ocazie e potrivita. Cert e ca nicotina e antidepresant. Dar vin si intreb: cit de deprimat pot fi la chefuri cind trag tigara dupa tigara?

    Am gasit o comparatie pentru ne-fumat: e ca si cum te-ar minca undeva si nu poti sa te scarpini.

  18. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:27 am18sorin

    NU. E ca si cum ti s-ar parea cum ca te-ar minca undeva si nu poti sa te scarpini. Dar de fapt nu te maninca.

  19. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:28 am19jemapel

    BA DA. Crezi ca exista o diferenta intre o mincarime reala si una imaginara?

  20. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:29 am20sorin

    Aceeasi ca intre a sti si a crede.

  21. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:29 am21jemapel

    Dar intre “a crede ca stii” si “a sti ce sa crezi“?

  22. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:30 am22jemanfu

    > Dar de fapt nu te maninca.

    Sorine, in principiu as fi de acord cu tine, doar ca nu stiu cum stabilim ca “de fapt” nu ma maninca…

    De fapt perspectiva e mai larga: daca putem crede ca ne maninca fara sa ne manince oare n-am putea crede ca ne scarpinam fara sa ne scarpinam? Chestiunea merita toata atentia pentru ca daca ii gasim o solutie atunci si problema fumatului e simpla: putem crede ca ne-am lasat.

  23. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:32 am23jemapel

    > cum stabilim ca “de fapt” nu ma maninca…

    Vorba poetului, “parca m-am indragostit“. Omul stie ca ceva se intimpla si crede ca e o mincarime. Aici “parca” se refera la indecizia de a se scarpina sau nu. Daca se scarpina, a fost clar o mincarime; daca nu, nu.

    Revenind la carte, tipul e fabulos:

    - evident ca lumea se teme ca se va ingrasa dup-aia. Nu-i nimic, are alta carte despre cum sa slabesti. Eu cred ca detine secretul cum sa te lasi de orice, mai putin de citit cartile lui.

    - zice sa fumezi cit poti cind citesti cartea si in niciun caz sa te lasi de fumat inainte s-o termini ca n-ai facut nimic.

    In consecinta, ies sa trag un tabacioc…

  24. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:34 am24jemanfu

    > revenind la carte

    Revenind la carte si abordarea ei, am citit recent un articol interesant:

    http://dilemaveche.ro/index.php?nr=308&cmd=articol&id=12227

    Pe scurt, articolul si replicile sint o dezbatere despre invatamintul bazat pe competente vs. invatatul pe dinafara. In termenii discutiei noastre: este lasatul de fumat o competenta sau pur si simplu invatam cartoiu cu pricina par coeur? Oricum ar fi, concluzia mea e ca ne lasam greu de fumat din cauza ca ne apucam gresit. Apucatul corect de fumat e complet si pe nedrept ignorat de literatura de specialitate, Ion e doar o victima inocenta a acestui fenomen. Atit apucatul cit si lasatul de fumat ar trebui sa se invete in scoala, la majorat orice om ar trebui sa poata face ambele chestii cu usurinta.

  25. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:36 am25jemapel

    > lasatul de fumat ar trebui sa se invete in scoala,

    As merge si mai departe si propun ca fumatul sa fie o disciplina obligatorie. Motivatia e simpla de indata ce observam ca oamenii uita tot ce invata la scoala. Astfel avantajul este dublu: pe de o parte copiii stau in scoala si nu fumeaza aiurea prin baruri unde se pot apuca de bautura si gagici iar pe alta parte dup-aia uita, cu folos de data asta.

  26. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:38 am26jemanfu

    > o disciplina obligatorie.

    Observatia e corecta: de indata ce un lucru devine obligatoriu copilul il evita cu sistema si il uita cit poate de repede. Riscul e sa se ajunga prea departe. Entuziastii vor sustine sa devina obligatorii si alcoolul si gagicile, eventual si mincatul bine. Daca le uitam si p-astea unde ajungem?

  27. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:40 am27jemapel

    > eventual si mincatul bine.

    Renuntatul la mincat ce-ti place (paralela are sens) ne aproprie de esenta problemului si anume ca omului ii vine greu sa renunte la ceva, practic la orice. Ca atare, ca sa invete sa renunte la lucruri majore el trebuie mai intii sa deprinda tehnica de a se lasa de lucruri minore. Pentru inceput, de morcovi; dup-aia de cartofi prajiti; si mai apoi de pastrama de oaie cu usturoi, boaia si cimbru facuta la foc mare, cu mamaliga si vin negru.

    In context si revenind din nou la carte, autorul vine si te intreaba (dupa ce anterior te-a facut stupid, las si ipocrit): ce-i asa de greu sa te lasi daca ai stabilit ca te-ai lasat? Si da un exemplu superb: daca ai hotarit ca nu treci strada ce te face sa treci strada?

    Si astfel ajungem la intrebarea fundamentala “De ce a trecut gaina strada“. Cea mai simpla explicatie (deci si cea corecta! – sare Occam, agitind un brici) e ca gaina a traversat ca sa-si cumpere tigari.

  28. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:41 am28jemapel

    > ne scarpinam fara sa ne scarpinam?

    Comparatia sufera avind in vedere ca mincarimea e o stare de spirit ce poate fi asociata cu cur-iozitatea umana si fenomenologia spiritului, pe cita vreme scarpinatul tine mai degraba de utilitarism, dovada ca te poti scarpina si fara sa te manince [v. razboiul din Irak].

    > putem crede ca ne-am lasat.

    Si astfel putem fuma cu demnitate in continuare. De pilda cei care fumeaza tigari Altora “numai la ocazii”, implicind ca fumatul si nefumatul e practic acelasi lucru cit timp nu-ti cumperi tigari.

  29. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:43 am29jemanfu

    > gaina a traversat ca sa-si cumpere tigari.

    Chestionabil. Trecutul strazii nu e nicaieri pe lista viciilor, cea mai buna dovada e ca la televizor nu vedem anunturi de genul “pentru o viata sanatoasa traversati strada cel mult o data pe zi”. in plus, daca ar fi adevarat, casele de pe partea cu chioscul ar trebui sa fie mult mai scumpe.

    > ce te face sa treci strada?

    Dar daca trebuie sa treci strada ca sa mergi la servici sau ca sa te intorci acasa? In principiu sint de acord cu autorul, iti trebuie inteligenta, curaj si onestitate sa renunti la obiceiurile astea proaste. Dar nu cumva in cazul asta ajungem cu totii la biblioteca incercind sa scriem carti despre lasatul de fumat? Oricum, ultima oara cind am vizitat institutia cu pricina, parea plina de indivizi mai curind prea timizi ca sa traverseze…

  30. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:48 am30crossy

    > da un exemplu superb: …

    Ba e un exemplu tembel, sa-mi fie cu iertare. E usor sa nu treci strada cand te-ai hotarat sa nu treci strada, pentru ca stii ca oricum o sa treci alta data strada (spre exemplu te trimite nevasta sau copilul a doua zi sa-i cumperi un pachet de tigari de la chioscul de vis a vis, ce poti sa faci?) sau poti sa ajungi peste strada ocolind trei strazi mai incolo. Poti sa te lasi usor de fumat 2 ore daca stii ca vei fuma ulterior mai mult sau ca sa treci pe alta marca de tigari.

    Ti-am zis eu sa nu te apuci de citit cartea aia. Eu deja fumez mai mult de cand citesc aici despre lasatul de fumat.

  31. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:51 am31jemapel

    > Ba e un exemplu tembel

    Nu chiar. Demonstraza cita valoare are o hotarire personala. Vezi bancul cu cateaua tiganului legata de caruta: “e ultima data cind o fac!” - decide ferm dupa ce trece printr-o balta.

    Deci o hotarire azi nu poate fi buna sau rea, – doar viitorul poate arata asta si atunci deja au fost multi alti factori care practic fac hotarirea initiala o chestiune secundara si derizorie. De aici, a tergiversa pare o atitudine inteleapta.

    > Eu deja fumez mai mult

    Ceea ce faci e absolut corect, exact asta recomanda si autorul. tot promite o minune care se va intimpla la sfirsitul cartii.

    > dar daca trebuie sa treci strada ca sa mergi la servici …

    Sa nu trivializam exemplul. Sa presupunem cazul ideal, cind casa ta, circiuma, serviciul si biserica sint toate pe aceeasi parte a strazii. decizia de a nu traversa merge o vreme, dar in timp apare o mincarime numita “dar ce-o fi pe partea ailalata?”. Sau poate ai dreptate, un exemplu mai bun ar fi fost casatoria.

    Deci problema revine din nou la mincarici si scarpinici. De asta se ocupa istoria, psihologia, psihiatria, procuratura si mai ales filozofia.

    Acum, jumate de filozofie se ocupa de relatia intre ele si invers (v. spirit si materie/mind and body) iar restul este etica, adica cum te raportezi la prima jumatate.

    Lucrurile sint chiar mai subtile observind ca in filozofiile asiatice distictia spirit/materie e o aiureala (greceasca, ca sa fim exacti). De pilda scoala de gindire Kamasutra considera ca scarpinatul e totuna cu mincarimea (foarte interesante pozitiile abordate, recomand).

  32. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:52 am32jemanfu

    > Eu deja fumez mai mult de cand …

    Cred ca pierzi din vedere urmatorul lucru: pentru un fumator serios berea, cititul, scrisul sau chiar lasatul de fumat sint doar raspunsuri la fel de bune la intrebarea “ce sa fac in timp ce trag o tigara?”.

  33. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:55 am33jemanfu

    > scoala de gindire Kamasutra considera ca scarpinatul e totuna cu mincarimea

    Fara doar si poate instructiv si mai ales relevant pentru tema noastra. Mi-aduce aminte ca asta vara in jurul unui gratar de ied am intilnit o fiinta vegetariana. Hotarit sa lamuresc lucrurile, am intrebat-o ce crede despre carne de n-o maninca. Mi-a zis ca pentru ea carnea nu e de mincare. raspunsul m-a surprins pentru ca pina atunci toti vegetarienii intilniti pareau a nu consuma carne tocmai pentru ca e de mincare, atitudine care, in treacat fie spus, mi se pare pura vanitate. Legatura cu Kamasutra e (re)stabilita de clasificarea de mai jos, la care am mai adaugat citeva chestii de cultura generala pentru completitudine:

    - pozitia vegetarianului logic: nu exista mincarime deci nu exista nici scarpinat.
    - pozitia vegetarianului vanitos: exista mincarime dar nu exista scarpinat.
    - pozitia indiana vizavi de carnea de vaca: mincarimea e buna deci scarpinatul e interzis.
    - pozitia musulmana vizavi de carnea de porc: mincarimea e rea deci scarpinatul e interzis.
    - pozitia Kamasutra: orice ai crede despre mincarime scarpinatul e obligatoriu.

    In fata luxuriantei pozitiilor mi se pare limpede ca etica sa fie in colaps. Dar daca examinam mai indeaproape pozitiile de mai sus constatam o oarecare indiferenta fata de premise si rationament. In schimb exista un atasament ferm fata de concluzii, ceea ce explica partial popularitatea Kamasutrei. Dar asta imi mai aminteste ceva: mama obisnuia sa spuna ca “pisica atunci cind n-are ce face se scarpina in cur ca sa aiba de ce mieuna“. Ceea ce-mi sugereaza o nou pozitie, care pare a schimba radical chestiunea:

    - pozitia pisicii: scarpinatul nu e o concluzie, e o premisa.

  34. on 08 Feb 2010 at 5:58 am34jemapel

    > – pozitia pisicii: scarpinatul nu e o concluzie, e o premisa.

    Parca premisa anterioara era ca in pisici nu poti avea incredere si deduc implicit ca motivatiile pisicilor sint pur carteziene – ma scarpin deci exist; si daca exist atunci cineva ar face bine sa bage de seama existenta mea; si mai repede, please.

    Aparent cea mai populara pozitie (exceptind Kamasutra #69) e cea hegeliana: Teza [ma maninca de mor] – Antiteza [mor sa ma scarpin] – Sinteza [nu vreau sa mor]. Pisica ta e in schimb epicuriana, asa cum bine vedem din urmatoarea tabela:

    * Platon: mincarimea e vesnica, inseparabila de scarpinat, insa distincte. Pisica ta se scarpina si in a IX-a viata, nu-i asa?
    * Epicur: scarpinatul e o placere. Dar ce, bem alcool de sete?
    * Aristotel: mincarimea e chiar scarpinatul. Dar ce, sintem pisici?
    * Stoici: te maninca doar in masura in care te scarpini. Ce timpiti!

    Asadar trebuie sa acceptam teoretic [dar ce, te pui cu grecii?] ca mincarimea e o realitate chiar daca nu se vede sau pipai [in schimb se poate scarpina], alaturi de tristete, durere de dinti sau dragoste. Iar practic, gasim la farmacie antipruritic, antidepresant, antinevralgic sau viagra (sau luam somnifere daca preferam sa uitam).

  35. on 08 Feb 2010 at 6:01 am35jemanfu

    > in pisici nu poti avea incredere

    Suspiciunea – reciproca si regretabila – se datoreaza cel mai probabil neatentiei. Probabil pisica a pornit intr-adevar de la seria carteziana mincarime->scarpinat->existenta dar cu siguranta a trecut prin Wittgenstein si a dedus corect ca despre mincarime nu se prea poate mieuna. A mai observat la toti filozofii dinaintea ei ca scarpinatul poate fi interpretabil sau chiar gresit: cu siguranta se va gasi cineva sa-ti ia mincarimea in raspar. In final a ajuns la concluzia ca esenta este mieunatul si ca, indiferent cit de prozaic sau implauzibil e temeiul, important e sa miauni convingator si cu stil.

    Bag mina in foc ca auzise si istoria lui Vasile despre care nu stim ce l-a mincat de-a ajuns sa se scarpine pe o insula pustie cu Miss Univers. Ce s-a aflat cu certitudine este ca la un moment dat Vasile a rugat-o pe domnisoara sa faca pe prietenul lui, Ghita, ca sa aiba cui spune povestea.

    > alaturi de tristete, durere de dinti sau dragoste.

    Daca adoptam intelepciunea pisicii noastre, vom observa ca tristetea, dragostea sau durerea de dinti sint in primul rind subiecte de roman. Asa cum a cumpara si eventual consuma antidepresive sau viagra poate fi singura cale de a intra in vorba cu pensionarul de vizavi.

  36. on 08 Feb 2010 at 6:04 am36jemapel

    > a trecut prin Wittgenstein …

    Trecind prin Ludwig a mai observat ca se vorbeste cam mult despre lucruri despre care nu se poate vorbi. Acest paradox ii provoaca o mincarime despre care nu poate vorbi. Chiar daca ar vorbi tot n-am intelege ce zice, ne previne Ludwig. In fata acestui blocaj logic, nu-i ramine decit sa se scarpine.

    > daca adoptam intelepciunea pisicii noastre, …

    In primul rind, daca adoptam intelepciunea pisicii noastre vom observa ca ele nu se lasa de nimic, cu atit de putin de fumat. Este adevarat, nici nu se apuca de ceva, desi timp liber ar avea din abundenta.

    Vedem acum clar ce ne desparte de pisici: sentimentul finitudii si totodata instinctul de a face ceva relevant, – iata doua lucruri care se exclud reciproc. Acest vid este compensat cu fumul de la frecat menta. Corolar: pisicile se vor apuca de fumat cind vor avea probleme existentiale.

    In al doilea rind si dupa cum s-a demonstrat, fiecare mincarime este specifica, ca si antidotul sau. De pilda este greu de conceput ca poti inlocui tigara de dupa-masa cu flotari iar cea de dupa sex cu genoflexiuni. Cine sustine contrariul e un ipocrit mizerabil si desigur, pe scala valorilor, nesinceritatea e mai nociva decit orice. Ei bine, asta ma sperie teribil.

  37. on 08 Feb 2010 at 6:06 am37jemanfu

    > vom observa ca ele [pisicile] nu se lasa de nimic,

    Eroare, dragule: pisica Adrianei s-a lasat – sau cel putin incerca sa se lase – de dormit. Iar Zozo a mea pare ca incearca sa abandoneze mincatul, am impresia ca e sezon de scarpinat. Judecind dupa graba cu care intra, infuleca ceva si pleaca sa se intilneasca cu vreo trei motani impresionanti, precis mincarimea e de natura metafizica.

    > desi timp liber ar avea din abundenta.

    Toate pisicile pe care le-am vazut pareau foarte ocupate, n-as vrea sa intru in detalii. Relevanta insa pare o chestie importanta, asa ca m-am intrebat ce-o fi: mincarime sau scarpinat. Raspunsul corect este, desigur, ca relevanta e de fapt mieunatul. Iar de asta pisicile nu duc lipsa.

    > pisicile se vor apuca de fumat cind vor avea probleme existentiale.

    Problemele existentiale sint doar o categorie de mincarimi dupa care ne-a ramas o literatura bogata. Mi se pare prezumtios sa acuzi pisicile ca n-au doar pentru ca nu scriu, in fond n-a scris nici Socrate. In plus mieunatul lor contine adesea o doza de frustrare marturisind lipsa unui Platon mai de Doamne-ajuta linga ele.

  38. on 08 Feb 2010 at 6:09 am38jemapel

    > toate pisicile pe care le-am vazut pareau foarte ocupate,

    Nu neg, de pilda pisica vecinului de vis-a-vis se holbeaza la mine de cite ori ies sa fumez. Ma simt urmarit, vinovat si stressat. Ca urmare aprind alta tigare iar ea e tot acolo, incremenita intr-un proiect gresit dupa parerea mea. Am incercat sa nu fumez si cu acelasi rezultat. In concluzie, au agenda lor incomprehensibila si mai mult de atit, se pare ca oamenii nu sint implicati.

    > mi se pare prezumtios sa acuzi pisicile

    Aici e vorba credibiliate mai mult decit orice. Vedem astfel cum:

    - pisici: haha, cita incredere poti avea in cineva cu 9 vieti?
    - fumatorii: credibili, cind s-au apucat de fumat au facut-o pentru motive justificabile
    - nefumatorii puri: n-au fumat niciodata, habar n-au de ce, incompetenta crasa in materie, se baga in vorba
    - nefumatori care s-au lasat de fumat: justificari faine, dar totodata si-au pierdut credibilitatea fiind in contradictie cu ei insasi
    - doctorii: dupa ei toate problemele se trag de la fumat; in consecinta daca duci o viata sanatoasa vei muri sanatos
    - popii: paradoxal, sint cei mai credibili, nu conteaza pe nimic miraculos in ce te priveste.

    Asadar, optiunile sint destul de clare.

  39. on 08 Feb 2010 at 6:10 am39jemanfu

    Ce sa zic? Sa incercam sa oferim pisicilor o tigare…

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